Posts by Island Man

68

What I Saw & Heard in the Oral Argument Hearing on January 14, 2015

by ABibleStudent in

im not an attorney and i could not record the hearing, so please forgive me if i make mistakes in relating what i remember of the oral argument hearing for jane doe (i.e., candace conti) versus the watchtower bible & tract society on january 14, 2015 and the length of this post.. i arrived at the civic center/union plaza in san francisco, ca about 7:30. the area is very nice with a few homeless people sleeping in the park across from the courthouse.

it took me about 10 minutes to find the clerks office for the court on the first floor, which opened at 8:00.. once the clerks office opened, the two clerks who i talked with were very polite and helpful.

the arguments for jane doe (i.e., candace conti) versus the watchtower bible & tract society were scheduled 5th out of (i think) 8. while i was in the office a cameraman and another person for nbc arrived asking about the hearing for candace contis case.. the courtroom for the 1st appellate court is on the 4th floor and takes up most of that floor.

Island Man

Wouldn't the Shepherd book (elder's manual) and confidential letter to bodies of elders giving them instructions on matters, show that a "special relationship" exists between Watchtower and local congregations?

10

How would they explain this one?

by StarTrekAngel in

while there is plenty of pressure for young jws to refrain from every act of premarital sex, self pleasuring or by engaging with others, there isn't a whole lot of advice on the bible regarding this aspect.

i have just recently began to wonder about it so the only thing i can recall regarding this on the scriptures, is the famous words recorded in 1 cor 7:39 or any other paragraph that speaks against sexual immorality.

however, i came across deut 21:10. check it out.

Island Man

The bible is a very misogynistic book and one of the areas that its misogyny is especially evident is in the area of sexuality. Here's why I say this:

1. From reading the Law, one gets the impression that adultery is always a sin against the husband and never a sin against the wife. The Law makes provision for a husband who suspects his wife of adultery, to bring her before the priests for a holy water trial. There is no such provision for the wife who suspects her husband of adultery.

The story of Mary's miraculous impregnation also seems to indirectly hint at adultery being a sin against the man. How so? Under the law adultery is supposed to be a capitol offence punishable by death. But when Joseph found out Mary was pregnant (presumably by another man), the bible says he decided to divorce her secretly because he was righteous. How could he be righteous for failing to report a capitol offence? Well, it seems like its only a capitol offence if the offended party - the husband - does not forgive the unfaithful wife. Now if adultery was a capitol offence period, regardless of the husband's forgiveness, then Joseph would have been duty bound to report Mary's crime and would not be considered righteous for failing to do so.

2. Polygamy is permissible but polyandry (a woman with multiple husbands) is not. A woman's right to be the sole, exclusive object of a man's romantic affection is not respected as the man can choose to have other women. But the man's right to be a woman's sole, exclusive object of romantic affection is enforced with the penalty of death. Sexual fidelity, under the Law, is all about pleasing the man, and adultery is all about stealing the man's sex toy behind his back. It has nothing to do with how women feel and their sexual needs.

23

When they ask in exasperation; "But what if it IS the Truth?"

by nicolaou in

this is how robert ingersoll responded to a fundamentalist's question, 'what if it's the truth?

' back in the 19th century.

"why," they say to me, "suppose all this should turn out to be true, and you should come to the day of judgement and find all these things to be true.

Island Man

"But what if it IS the truth?"

To that I will respond:

"But what if it is NOT the truth? What if you're worshipping the wrong God? What if you're worshipping the right God in the wrong way? Given that there are so many different religions with conflicting beliefs and Gods, the odds that you have the right one is very slim. If there really is just one God who must be worshipped in one particular way to earn is favor, then mathematically speaking, you have odds of winning his favor that's not very much better than zero. And what kind of God causes or allows such a state of religious confusion to persist in the world, with no definitive, objective evidence of his existence, making it very hard to figure out exactly which way he is to be worshipped or to be certain that he exists at all, and then turns around and damns people for not getting it right? Certainly not a God worthy of worship!"

27

Experience in a talk

by Da.Furious in

last week we had an elder giving a talk, cant remember the title.. the thing that was of interest is the experience he gave:.

"a brother who was working in a hospital had to leave his job which was paying him good money because the nurses wanted to sleep with him and they kept putting notes for him on his desk!".

this is not the first time i hear similar experience.

Island Man

Watchtower tends to use the most extreme experiences that don't really represent what is typical.

One time during a talk where the brother was discouraging marriage to unbelievers he gave an experience of a sister who married an unbeliever who turned out to be a secret bestialist and he passed on to her some loathsome STD that he contracted from a dog. Is that typically what happens when a JW marries an unbeliever? No. But an experience like that serves to terrorize JWs into not marrying unbelievers.

245

Still pointing your Finger when having a Rafter in your eye?

by DocHouse in

yes- everyone has faults and makes mistakes; an organization even more so.. yet, you ignore all the fingers pointing at you.. many here have no faith.

many here go to churches who lie about everything biblical; look at x-mas!.

but at least we know god and christ and try to live up to their name!.

Island Man

DocHouse: Finkle- if one gulliblibly accepts an opinion as a fact- the fault is THEIR'S.

DocHouse, Watchtower does not present it's BS as merely their opinion that you can choose to accept or reject. You are choosing to redefine their questionable teachings presented as truth as being merely an opinion so as to justify your continued support for an organization teaching falsehoods. You are essentially mislabeling the Watchtower's false teachings because you are in denial.

And by the same reasoning you used, quoted above, you would also have to blame all the members of all the other false religions for believing the falsehoods their religions teach them and you would have to also excuse the religious leaders for teaching those falsehoods by also mislabeling their falsehoods as being merely opinion.

I'm beginning to notice a trend, Doc. Most if not all of the excuses you use to justify Watchtower and justify your continued support to them, can also be used by members of other false religions to justify those religions and their continued support to them. You are basically making partial distinctions, using arguments to support your position that you would not accept as reasonable or just arguments if they came from a person of another false religion.

Let me leave you with something to think about Doc. Jesus said this at Luke 21:8 (RSV):

And he said, “Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

Jesus told his followers that people will tell them the time is at hand - the end is immediately imminent - and warned them not to go after them. This is exactly what Watchtower did for a good chunk of its history, setting dates for the end of the current system of things. C.T. Russel even published a book with many ridiculous, false end time predictions entitled . . . "The Time Is At Hand!" !!! If that isn't a fulfillment of Jesus' words at Luke 21:8 then I don't know what is.

The argument that they were simply interpreting existing bible prophecies and not making up a new original prophecy simply does not wash. Jesus gave no exceptions when he said do no go after those making such predictions. Wouldn't it be utterly stupid for Jesus make give such a warning and not mention that important exception and then later choose men as his FDS who do this very thing, with the result that many sincere people refuse to follow them because of Jesus' own words? How stupid do you think Jesus is? Just imagine that you are a sincere student of the bible alive during the time of C.T. Russel and J.F. Rutherford, and you are familiar with Luke 21:8 and notice that the International Bible students headed by Russel and later Rutherford were doing exactly what Jesus said to be wary of - including writing a book of false predictions the title of which, perfectly matches the false message Jesus said to be wary of! What do you think you should do - join the International Bible students, or not follow after them in obedience to Jesus? Do you honestly think Jesus would have chosen the very kind of people he warned his followers not to go after, to be his FDS? Something has got to be seriously wrong with your thinking or honesty if your answer is yes.

Also, given that the bible does, in fact, predict an end to the system, anyone of those false prophets Jesus warned not to follow could always give the excuse that they're merely interpreting scripture that speak about the end. In fact, given that such false prophets are targeting christians - for the scripture says that they'll come in Jesus' name (claim to be christian and maybe even claim that Jesus appointed them as the FDS in such and such year) - it is to be expected that they would base their predictions on existing bible prophecies that talk about the end, twisting these and other texts to propagate their rubbish. What better way for Satan to attempt to deceive christians than to use false prophets twisting scriptures and claiming their use of scripture excludes them from being considered as false prophets? So this excuse about interpreting existing bible prophecies is really a very weak and desperate tactic that is really nothing more than an irrelevant technical contrivance for the sake of obfuscation and misleading gullible people into trusting the false prophet.

So again, do you really think Jesus now approves of an organization that fulfills the role at Luke 21:8? You're making an idiot out of Jesus - or yourself? Which is it?

45

Pagan Origins

by tinker in

a currently active jdub acquaintance occasionally stops by to say hello and we share a wee dram or two.

after the general small talk of new cars, exotic vacations and sports we often get into the "why" we are xjubs.

he is a well educated publisher who holds a phd in child psychology.

Island Man

The funny thing is that the bible itself indicates that a Christian can eat meat that was sacrificed to idols provided he did it innocently as a regular meal and not as a religious rite, and was not stumbling anyone. Paul told the Corinthians that they can eat meat given them without inquiring of its origins. This shows that the pagan origin of the meat doesn't really matter to God. What matters is the intent with which it's eaten by the Christian and whether eating it in the presence of others with weaker consciences could stumble them. See 1 Corinthians 10:25-30

In contrast, JWs adopt an overly scrupulous pharisaic attitude of feeling compelled to research the origin of obscure practices to make sure there're no pagan roots hidden somewhere in its history. They are missing the point completely. According to 1 Corinthians 10:25-30 God does not stigmatize an otherwise innocent practice engaged in with innocence simply because of past association with paganism.

6

Watchtower Society wins the 'PINK ELEPHANT' award for 2014

by Esse quam videri in

the international pink elephant committee has just awarded the 'watchtower society' the 'pink elephant' award for 2014. .

the committee's press release stated, in part;.

'... usually our ten committee members have to research a number of organizations to determine which one will receive the yearly award.

Island Man

:musical_note: For they're a sorry stink to-wer,
from us Watchtower does co-wer,
from truth JWs co-o-wer ...
which nobody can deny :musical_note:

"Hip-hip-hip
Hooray!
Hip-hip-hip
Hooray!
Hip-hip-hip
Hooray!"

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

Island Man

Also, I can even see a kind of tradition or rite of passage developing, whereby whenever someone with the generic flag has fully extricated himself from Watchtower and is no longer afraid of or care about, being shunned or DF'd he goes into his profile and changes the flag from being generic to being his actual flag signalling to all that he is finally free, having fully escaped Watchtower's stateless "no part of this world" prison and rejoined the real world society of his homeland.

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

Island Man

I like the idea of having to choose between having your real flag shown or a fictitious generic flag that does not identify a real country. I think that is a very good compromise and I fully support it.

The generic flag can have an icon on it that conveys the impression of being a fugitive of Watchtower in hiding to indicate that we do not want our location being known. Just an idea.

26

Watchtower Study today Jan 4 2015 , Fallacious Reasoning (issue Nov 15 2014)

by BluesBrother in

the subject of the study was jesus resurrection .

my post is not about the subject and whether or not that can be believed in.

millions of christians do and it is not my place to debunk religious faith.

Island Man

The subheading that said: "Why we know Jesus was resurrected" was rather ambitious in its use of the word "know". Repeatedly the paragraphs would give reasons why we "know" Jesus was raised up.

It shows that the writing dept. is going beyond what is written and doesn't know the difference between knowledge and belief/faith. Christians today can't know that Jesus was raised up. They can only believe/exercise faith in it. If they knew it then they would not be able to exercise faith in it as Romans 10:9 instructs them to, because knowledge of a fact renders faith in that fact obsolete.

Christians don't even know that God exists. Scripturally speaking, they believe that he exists. (Hebrews 11:6)